this question is really for elders or ex-elders (or ministerial servants in the know).... did you find that some elders would tend to "white-wash" the true state of the congregation when they had their sit-down with the co every 6 months?.
did some elders feel pressure to hide certain things from a co for fear of being "removed" from the boe?.
(judging by the "fakeness" that some elders displayed during co visits, i have to wonder whether they were really worried about being removed for not seeking out inactives or encouraging more participation during the wt study, book study or fs...).
I served as an elder for twenty years, and the answer is No not always open and truthful, often truthyness is involved (a Stephne Cobert moment)
I personally filled in (the Blanks) in Pub record cards, i have been in meetings were elders have said stuff that seemed like there were serving on an elder body in some kind of nirvana Cong of there own making. CO"s are gulity of hearing what they want to hear and sending in reports telling HQ what they want to hear.
let's call it what it is - disagreeing with the watchtower bible and tract society after baptism into the cult.
in no way is the literal definition of the word "apostasy" applicable to what the cult is using the word for.
it is a buzz word that scares the crap out of the rank and file and keeps them from communicating with those who have become enlightened about the cults lies.. we here on jwn have accepted the wt label, "apostates", with a sense of humor, such as calling our get togethers apostafests, etc.. but we are actually the "enlightened"..
This is one thing that does really drives me crazy, the idea that any disagreement is being an apostate. I have said to some in my hall that crime and violence are on the decline and just for saying that i was talked to and about for apostate leanings. Forget about truth or facts.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-decline-of-violence
Truth is what the GB says, if it is not true it becomes true when they say it!
thinking back to all those talks i heard about the sign of the last days, one thing that many used as proof of christ's presence was the dramatic changes, socially and politically, which all began in 1914. in the reasoning book, a few quotes are listed:.
"looking back from the vantage point of the present we see clearly today that the outbreak of world war i ushered in a twentieth-century 'time of troubles'-in the expressive term of the british historian arnold toynbee-from which our civilization has by no means yet emerged.
directly or indirectly all the convulsions of the last half century stem back to 1914.
As New Chapter and others have pointed out here is my take:
As someone has been very interested in 1914 and it place in history here is my take. In 1914 everything changed (especially for all those the WT quotes) for the 1%, the very rich white folks. The very privileged lived in a pre1914 utopia. For everyone else it was hell. The social upheaval at the turn of century made life tough on those who oppressed; the oppressors were “the rich”. What was life like for the average American black in 1800’s (95% of black women work as domestics with almost no rights. Black men could not vote or hold any jobs in authority) What was life like for women. (no voting rights, no property rights, did not even have the right not to be beat) What was it like for children. (in the 1800’s children as young as 7 worked in coal mine and textile factories legally!) .. Life now for women, children, minorities the average working man is not a little better the pre 1914, It is 10,000 times better. The social upheaval at the turn of the century made for a much, much better world. Soldiers who marched home from WW1 said lets not take crap for titled, rich jerk officers anymore. Women and men started to stand up to the old ways,, a better world resulted. If you don’t think this is true study what life was really like in the 1800’s especially if you were a women or a minority.
But there are those that say it is worse now look at divorce rates etc.. Women didn’t divorce then because they had nowhere to go, there were no good jobs for women, they had no rights to land or property , no right to even to their own children. Even if they were beaten daily, they could not do anything about it.
It was legal in England to beat you own wife if she was out of line, as long as the stick was not too big.
Since 1914 life expectancy has doubled, that sounds like a good thing,, that sort of is a bottom line thing how long do you live. Women do not die at childbirth the same, we do not die of minor infections etc, etc,,
To sum up I quote PJ O’Rourke “for those who think the good old days are better I have one word “dentistry”
so paragraph 5 of todays watchtower says: people with faith see clearly the difference between the baseless claims of men and the sacred promises of jehovah god.
then i thought of every pre 1995 awake inside cover page in the box where it say why the awake is published; where it says:.
most important, this magazine builds confidence in the creators promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.. .
Timothy T,, exactly,, you are right,, that is the whole issue we "Do Not put our trust in earthling man" including those who claim to interpert to us What Gods promises are. The point I was making of course is these "Men of Faith" GB F&DS have failed in the past understanding what gods timing and purpose is. So what conclsuion should thinking people come up with. Conclusion: the bible tells us "Do Not put your trust in earthling man" this would include the GB F&DS, they are earthling man last I checked.
so paragraph 5 of todays watchtower says: people with faith see clearly the difference between the baseless claims of men and the sacred promises of jehovah god.
then i thought of every pre 1995 awake inside cover page in the box where it say why the awake is published; where it says:.
most important, this magazine builds confidence in the creators promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.. .
So Paragraph 5 of today’s Watchtower says: “People with faith see clearly the difference between the baseless claims of men and the sacred promises of Jehovah God”
Then I thought of every pre 1995 Awake inside cover page in the box where it say Why the Awake is Published; Where it says:
Most important, this magazine build’s confidence in the Creators promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.
So this got be thinking are they people of Faith? Do they know what Gods promises are? Then I realized that I need an MRI because clearly to be thinking these things I must be diseased mentally as next weeks article points out.
Is it just me?
this study edition is an absolute attack on kids going to higher education, and you all are getting too cosy at home with your sky tv and the internet, get out on the doors you idle dogs.. oh and if you have a good job already you could not be putting the kingdum first !.
here is some of the crap in the mag, and the article temporary residents in a wicked world.. 10. .
in view of the imminent end of the present system of things, as jehovahs servants.
Vigilant Christians get a university education and as much education as possible.!!!
Why because they are Tue Christians and follow what the Bible says on education.
If through education we can help people in a full way we do it. See Prov. 3:27
The Bible supports being Skilled. See Proverbs 22:29
It will make us better able to provide for our family. See 1 Tim. 5:8
God used those that were highly educated, when God and Jesus had a choice to pick someone to work out there purpose they chose the well educated. EG: Luke, Paul, Moses, Daniel etc…..
True Christians like the Boreans see what the bible has to say on the subject of education
News Flash GB the Bible condemns your position on education
here i am - born in truth, hard-core spiritual everything all my life, early reg.pioneer, ms, elder, assembly parts, tour at bethel, etc, married now...... i'm trying to examine jw teachings a little closer...... i've spent the last two weeks reading many many posts, info , references on where ex-jw's are coming from.
i'm kind of concerned about a few things lately..... honestly - some points make sense to me - some don't - here are my general thoughts:.
-wt getting un membership for access to library - doesnt bother me - some passports and other governement documents have similar forms and requirements..... -blood issue - some counterpoints to the jw 'rules' makes sense (original intent of scripture is unbled animals, white blood cells similar in mothers milk) etc -however a lot of 'apostate' reasonings and proof are inaccurate.
Welcome Makersmark
I agree with nearly all your post. I am still an active Witness but resigned as an elder six months ago after thirty years of serving.
Biggest Issue: Same as you, Generation change and overlap, to me it makes us look like nutters. Now a new dead line; those who are overlapers will by no means pass away before the end comes!! (how many dealines do we have to blow through, before we all say enough? 1914 no longer makes senes. If no one is alive that saw the events of 1914 it is not really relevent. Plus the world was worse in the 100 years before 1914 then the 100 after. I would rather live now then anytime in the 1800's.
I wish we would just drop anything to do with dates and end is nigh talk.
My seond biggest issue in the JW stand on education. This is just plan wrong on many levels.
1)Not supported by the bible. (unless you want to do a crazy spin job)
2) Hypocritical: Please,,, see if you get a call from bethel if you are an engineer, doctor, dentist etc...
3) Only those trying to oppress limit education. Truth is not afraid of higher learning.
4) None of there bisiness what the R&F may decide on this. If the bible does not have a clear ruling stay out of it. I have a son in High School he is going on to Higher Education, i saved them the trouble of deleting me. They are just going to lose a lot of elders.
This leads to my question what do you think of the GBs stand on education?
this past weekend a quote from the wt study caught my eye.
it can be found on paragraph 14 of the article.. "however, worsening world conditions have caused many to respond when shown that alienation fromgod is at the root of human evil and suffering.".
i'm just focusing on the first par that says the world is getting worse.
In 1914 Satan was hurled down to earth having a short period of time. So let’s see….. Before 1914 life expectancy was short, medical science was poor. In the 1800’s a large percentage of children died at birth or did not make it to 18. Children as young as six worked in coal mines legally. Child Labour was legal, Children had no rights, women had no rights, no vote no property rights. 95% of black women in the USA worked as servants, early 1800’s as slaves. Food killed you, bad water killed you, lead killed you. There were no government inspections of food or really anything. If your wife made you mad you could beat her legally. Try going to a dentist in the 1800’s, try having an operation. Got an infection, looks like you are going to die. No antibiotics. Poor lived in squalor, no electricity, no social safety net. Your crop fails, you die. War’s rage Taiping Rebellion in China kills more then the first world war over 20 million (did you know that) European wars kill millions. The American Civil war kills more Americans than have died in every war since put together. Life was especially bad if you were, Chinese, Black, a women or any race other than white. Yes life changed in 1914, it only broke up the party that rich white men were having. So lets see then Satan was hurled down and what did he do: Got in there and forced the issue on slavery banning it as best he could worldwide Tried his best to make most nations see that all races are equal in the sight of God He helped elect a black President He brought in women’s rights He doubled life expectancy worldwide He helped make huge advancements in medicine He tried to stamp out child Labour The percentage (as to the whole earth population) of those without food is about the lowest in history. He made all the worlds’ knowledge available to everyone by means of the internet, not just the rich. He is a freak about safety, brought in food safety standards, child car seats, airbags, air travel safety regulations, safe cribs, mine safety standards, work place safety standards and he keeps insisting on more safety. It’s to the point that less children and adults die due to accidents today then anytime since records were kept. (If you doubt any of this, please research what it would be like for you in the early 1800’s if you were a black women, pregnant, poor, in need of medical attention,, I could go on and on.) Fact is your average person today lives better then Kings and Queens did 150 years ago. Does this make sense Satan came to earth and started to rule in 1914 and he did What? Doubled you chance of leading a full happy life and living to old age? Were things better in the 1600’s, 1700’s and 1800’s without Satan’s influence? The whole theory simply does not work. | |
| Wobble / Lore I Agree with you,, this is somthing i posted two months ago |
|---|
my school was a couple weeks back, and it was interesting to a degree.
to be honest with you, it reminded me of a police crime scene investigation with yellow tape.
what i mean is, in one respect it was business as usual.
Hi Misery
Loved your post. I resigned as an elder three months ago. I have a son in High School, we have saved money for his education. As the GB has taken a stronger stance against education, the more turned off I got. Last year at our elders meeting with the CO he read in his outline that an Elders qualifacations would be questioned if thier son or daughter received higher education I thought thats it,, I can't support this. (plus overlap crap, and other nutter stuff) Also i could not bear another Elders school and the feeling of being a double agent. They just don't get it its not there right or Job to put limits on anyones right to become what they want to be Doctor, Lawyer or whatever. The bible does NOT support limiting education. The GB is losing those that think, and those who learn critical thinking give them grief. Fact is truth can stand critical thinking,,,unless,,, some things are not true at all and maybe made up? Could that be mmmmmmmmmmm.
a fundamental platform of the watchtower bible and tract society, from which its fearsome prognostications are launched, is the inexorable deterioration of the world.
the world is becoming a less and less hospitable place in which to live.
it seems with news of every earthquake, every natural catastrophe, every epidemic, every atrocity, and every disaster manmade or otherwise, there is the inevitable shaking of the finger and stern proclamation, "see?
I beleive the world is a much better place now. Note portions of some of past posts on this:
This all lead me down another road of “personal” study. What about the worsening world conditions does that not prove we are in the time of the end? I went to a two day elder’s school they had a demo how to deal with someone who doubted the time of the end. We were to ask them are things getting better or worse as you look around the world. They of course say worse, and then Joe Elder say’s see we are at the end of the last days. All simple and clear cut. I had just been NYC and walked through central park at night, never felt safer. Murder rate in NYC in the late 70’s and 80’s was 1500 a year now 500 a year. Getting better? Violent crime way down! I went to the lower east side Tenement museum in NYC. (Well worth it by the way) Conditions for the average person in the 1800 really really sucked, infant mortality terrible, I could go on and on. We are taught the WW1 ushered a time of death and violence. That we are living in the wickedest and most turbulent time in world history. This is absolutely untrue. The only way you could think that we are living in the worst time in human history is if you had little or no knowledge of history. Interesting that there were deadlier wars then WW1 in the 1800’s Wikipedia say 15 million died in WW1 but in the supposed peaceful 1800’s 20 million died in the Taiping Rebellion. (Or do we just count European wars) More Americans died in the civil war then every war put together since the civil war. If you still have doubts about this, here is some recommended reading.
It's getting better all the time : 100 greatest trends of the last 100 years. by
Stephen Moore , Julian Lincoln Simon
The new Bill Bryson book “At Home” What life was like for the average person 1800’s.
“Before the Dawn” By Nicholas Wade
Maybe you think the Morals are in big decline please read.
The Way we never Were. By Stephanie Coontz.
I think you get the point of how I feel.
